Truth with a capital T

[qatarperegrine]

The phrase "All roads lead to the same place" came up in conversation yesterday, and I've been thinking more about it.

I don't, in fact, believe that all roads lead to the same place. The analogy is usually, I think, that the religions of the world are all paths leading up the same mountain, which is to say that they all converge on the same end goal. But is the goal the same in every religion? I don't think even the major religions share a vision of what it means to attain spiritual fulfillment -- becoming a boddhisatva is not quite the same as becoming a saint, or a tirthankara, or a Muslim prophet. I suppose one could say (to use Christian language) that the goal they converge upon is God, but I don't find God-as-object-of-quest to be a satisfying metaphor for religion. And this is ignoring the even further question of whether all religious beliefs and practices even lead towards and not away from what I consider to be holy.

I really don't think you have to believe that all religions are interchangable in order to have a profound respect for other religious traditions. I'm not sure you even have to see them as equal, to use the contested word of the week.

My central image of the relationships of the religions is more like a story I heard from Rev. Ben Silva-Netto at a training for Methodist lay speakers in California. He asked us to imagine a room full of art students circled around a model in the middle of the room. Because they all see the model from a unique perspective, and because they come to the assignment with their own personal background and skills, each of them portrays the model differently. One paints a portrait, one draws a silhouette in charcoal, one sketches the model's hands. At the end of the assignment, when the model has left the room and they start looking at each other's work, they are sure to find areas of disagreement in their portrayals. People sitting in very differerent places are likely not even to be able to recognize that each other's pictures are of the same model. (This was certainly true when I took an art class in college!)

Rev. Silva-Netto used this as an analogy for the theological task. When we start trying to explain how we understand "Truth with a capital T" we are likely to disagree with each other. And if I see my own painting rather than the model itself as the Truth, I am likely to see my neighbors' portrayal of the Truth as wrongheaded. But this is only because my own perspective is limited, and I am failing to recognize that the model itself exists in one more dimension than my version of it. So I see my version and my neighbor's as mutually exclusive, not realizing that our disagreements and contradictions don't have to be resolved, that our observations may both be valid even when they conflict. And, in fact, if I were to try to make the draw-er of the silhouette buy into my vision of the model's hands, I would be asking that person to go against the Truth that was disclosed to her.

Anyway, this metaphor is not entirely a satisfying metaphor for religion either, because I think God/The Truth/The Tao/Whatever is a lot more than a passive model. But for me it IS a more helpful metaphor for the intellectual, theological aspect of faith, because it explains how we can acknowledge and even learn from other people's visions of the Truth even when they disagree with ours, whereas (in my mind, at least) the paths-up-a-mountain metaphor requires that we ignore the very real differences between the religions.

So I hear a question like "Is Jesus divine?" and I wonder if yes/no is the right approach. I think there is truth in the Christian assertion that God is ultimately revealed through the life and death of Jesus. I think there is also truth in the Muslim assertion that the whole Trinity idea is a little weird. And I don't think it's violating the Christian tradition to see the perspective that might be gained from both sides of an issue; the Bible is, after all, full of different and contradictory perspectives. Was Abraham saved by faith or by works? The Bible includes (at least) two contradictory statements on the matter. I think things like that are an acknowledgement that different intellectualizations of an experience can be useful even when they completely contradict one another.

In Buddhist logic, a and not-a are not the only logical alternatives. Both a and not-a and neither a nor not-a are also logical perspectives. I see value in a both a and not-a approach to Truth: Jesus is God, Jesus is not God, there are spiritual insights we can gain from both positions. Or to be more apophatic, the divine mystery cannot be reduced to either "Jesus is God" or "Jesus is not God." Neti, neti, the Hindus would say: Ultimate Reality is neither simply this nor simply that, but always transcends any formulations we use to describe it. The Tao that can be described in words is not the real Tao.

I wanted to talk more about Christian particularism and the question of whether "Jesus is God" even is the central truth claim of Christianity. (Not to mention whether truth claims are the heart of religion in the first place.) But I think I'll have to leave that for another day....

Comments

Re: LOL on the Gopi Goodness!

[qatar.livejournal.com]

But again, there's still a problem of recursion, if you will. The law may give seemingly objective criteria by which to test the validity of a prophet, but what are the objective criteria by which we test the validity of the law?

Back to Square 1. ;-)

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

I was pretty sure, I mentioned this before, but apparently not. Cool Person jane_etrix recently posted a locked :-( entry on sunday, about her "aversion to doctrine" and how skeptical and contrary she was with regard to claims about people knowing G-d's Will. My reply to this part of her entry was:

---

Regarding the "how do we know?" question, you are also right in being so contrary and skeptical, considering that the vast majority of the world's religions and/or doctrines are the claimed result of Divine Revelation to single individuals (or at most VERY small groups, like the lucky-few Disciples who "saw the Resurrection of Jesus"). You would think that IF G-d had a specific Message to the World [Tm] that G-d wanted followed, then knowing how skeptical human nature is, G-d would know much better than to tell it to some single weirdo hiding in a cave, and expect the world to heed this "messenger". You would expect G-d and/or the Message to be revealed before a large group of people, making the divine source of the message clear, to all that were there. This in fact, in what we believe to have happened at Mt. Sinai, where G-d was revealed before an estimated two million people.

---

Strangle enough, in further comments on that entry, I referenced this one (which is probably why I'm so confused about what I posted where, what with having so much fun simultaneously with jane_etrix, spider88 and yourself). I also addressed this (halfway through the comment) in that monster thread of spider88's that we first "met" in.

To summarize my point, we know the initial revelation of the Torah was true, because this wasn't some mystical event that some prophet experienced by their lonesome self, and now must convince us all. Rather, it was a clearly miraculous event witnessed by millions of people.

You could claim this too, to be a circular claim, because we know of this event from the Torah itself, but that would be ignoring the fact that we also know that millions of people accepted the Torah as Divine within the immediate time-frame involved (read those links mentioned in my comment to spider88). Even without this physical "evidence", we have other documents from the near time-frame, that indicate this was accepted doctrine. Let's see you fool millions of people in a short time-period of the divinity of a "religion".

No go!

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

If you read the text carefully - (Exodus 32), you will find that only 3000 people (verse 28) sinned with the Golden Calf. Even so, yes indeed, this is the most serious transgression in Jewish History, to the extent that we are STILL paying the price for it, 3317 years later. Also from the text (verse 1), Aaron, was not the source of the initiative. These people came to him.

The following is an interesting review of Golden Calf incident.

Re: Back to Square 1. ;-)

[qatar.livejournal.com]

So... I know the Torah is true because the Torah tells me millions of people were there. I'm glad you realize how circular that is. ;-) From a completely skeptical perspective: there is no extrabiblical evidence that there were two million Hebrews at Sinai, and even if there were, there is no evidence other than the Torah itself of what they saw or heard. So that's hardly a convincing argument!

"Let's see you fool millions of people in a short time-period of the divinity of a 'religion.'"

If this is your criterion for judging true revelation, then you should be a Muslim. No religion has EVER spread as quickly as Islam.

Re: Back to Square 1. ;-)

[qatar.livejournal.com]

LOL!

But I've already said that I don't buy the high y-intercept. Well, larger than 1, perhaps, but not 2 million.

Allah the Merciful, Allah the Mathematician

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

LOL, I would never have put it that way (math being my weak side), but yes, as a simplified metaphor, that was my general direction. Except that it would NOT have a "large slope" at all, beyond the natural growth factor of the initial group. We have never been a proselytizing tradition (and any time we have, ended in disaster (Studying Judaism was the Hip Thing [Tm] in Rome circa 0 CE, they destroyed the Temple in 72 CE)). As I've said in the the "Paths" sub-thread below, there is no NEED to spread "Our Truth" to the world, and make everybody confirm to it. The "strength" of a "Truth" is hardly measured by the number of it's adherents (especially so, when it's the Truth itself, that includes a non-initiate specific Path).

Thanks for the clarifying comment. Also, there is NO 'c' in Shmuel. I'm not sure what it is, in the phoentics of this name, that many Anglophiles, sneak that 'c' in there (my own non-immediate family did so for many years, so don't sweat it). Shmuel is the original Hebrew form of the Prophet Samuel's name.

Not so

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

there is no extrabiblical evidence that there were two million Hebrews at Sinai, and even if there were, there is no evidence other than the Torah itself of what they saw or heard.

Except that there is! There is very strong evidence that Canaan was conquered within the immediate time-frame of this Revelation (within a century, but that's about as accurate as layer-based /pottery-shard archeology gets), and further strong evidence that this "force", within the same general time-frame, was to whatever varying extent observing the Law and customs as set down in the Torah. I pointed out elsewhere two important such finds: Joshua's Altar on Mt. Eval and The Gilgal. The first is thoroughly researched and dated - I have a fascinating book [in Hebrew] written by Prof. Zertal who found it (archaeological evidence shows that the extensive sacrifices on site, were all only from Kosher animals), and the second is a much more recent find, which as such, is less well studied.

But let us presume, for the sake of argument, that it wasn't the Torah that was received at Sinai, or even that Sinai, did not even happen. We do know that at a certain point in time T, we have well established evidence that millions of people accepted the Torah, not only as Dogma, but as factual history. This T is very close time-wise to the actual Exodus time-line laid out, in the Torah, and continuous through the books of Joshua and the Early Prophets. At what point along that time-line, does the Cabal of Jewish Elders whip out these writings and declare "From this point onward, this is now our Official History [Tm]. Learn it, love it, and forget whatever your grandparents told you previously. This [and only this] is How It Was [Tm]" and manage to do so, in a culture that has skepticism and Asking Big Questions [Tm], practically built in to it? The smaller T is, or the larger the population gets, the less probable this becomes, wouldn't you agree? Most skeptics place T at Exodus+ ~800, with the later Kings, some agree to +400 (First Temple). The above evidence drops it to at most +100.

Taking Islam, Christianity or Mormonism (to name a modern example) in comparison, how many adherents were there at Revelation +50, or even +200. Now take those numbers and subtract those that came by this Revelation, by outside coercion, internal decree (Such as Constantine in 4th century Rome). How many of those remaining can say "This is my [great] grandparents we're talking about", very few. Sword-point can be extremely convincing in enabling one to See the Light [Tm]. This if anything, is why Islam spread so rapidly. While Christendom also had Jihad equivalents in the Crusades, this was, in reality, more about politics and internal power-games, than actually Spreading the Faith, which is clearly apparent in that for the most part, the general public did not get behind the Crusades half as much as the Muslim public did. [ In fact, this can probably be said about practically ALL wars originating in Christian countries. Which is why, the USA is presently doing so badly in Afghanistan and Iraq. ]

Re: Not so

[qatar.livejournal.com]

"At what point along that time-line, does the Cabal of Jewish Elders whip out these writings and declare 'From this point onward, this is now our Official History [Tm].'"

621 BCE. When Hilkiah "found" the Law.

Re: Not so

[qatar.livejournal.com]

Let me expand on that, because I know that answer will piss you off. ;-)

I've only had time to skim the Joshua's altar finding. But it seems to me that what they found is a Mesopotamian-style altar on which were sacrificed some animals that the Jews were told to sacrifice, and some that they are not.

This is hardly evidence that the ENTIRE TORAH was in force in the 13th century BCE.

Obviously

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

Obviously you can't infer the entire Torah, from a single site. BUT what you CAN infer from this site is:

1. A rather large number of people used it in a very specific manner.


2. This happened precisely where and when the Torah and Bible tradition tells us that it did, so while it is possible that the relevant Torah "commands" (Deuteronomy 27:1-13), where written after the fact, to match what had already happened. This still doesn't change the fact that this event happened at the "right time".


3. This important Covenant event, happened within the frame work, of the "Israelite" invasion.


4. This site was a one-shot event, and not part of any ongoing settlement in the region. There are no other finds in the area, and the entire site was sealed over, with that "pile of rocks" shortly after it was used (I'm not sure he mentions this in the article).

I'm sure there are other singular things this one site can tell us about the situation, but can't list any more off-hand, being tired and hurried.

Hilkiah

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

While at first glance, I was willing to concede that indeed this would appear to be a very weak link in our chain, on second thought I find that using this "insertion point", involves a certain large amount of circular logic.

If we are to accept the narrative of this event (or even the entire narrative from Hilkiah onwards (inclusive)), as representative of history, then accordingly this miraculous "find" occurred in the temple, in a country, with a large population who knew enough of their "tradition", to readily agree to accept this "lost" book, as authentic.

Where then did this Temple and the entire tradition around it come from? According to most Bible scholars, the Priesthood parts of the Torah, are the later additions, not the older ones. Where did this nation so different from the original Canaanites come from? If the Exodus is fable, then what is their source?

Re: Hilkiah

[qatar.livejournal.com]

Well, here is the basic history I learned in my biblical studies and Israelite religions classes.

The folk worship of the early Hebrews was NOT that different from the worship of the Canaanites and their neighbors. There are inscriptions to "Yahweh and his Asherah," and a TON of other similarities between the God of the Israelites and the neighboring gods, particularly El and Baal. I totally wish I had access to my class notes in Pittsburgh so I could make this case more strongly, but this is what I was taught at a very middle-of-the-road seminary. There is ample evidence of large continuations between Canaanite religion and Israelite religion.

Obviously, Hebrew religion became something very different. Animal sacrifice replaced human. Monotheism replaced henotheism. Worship at a single temple replaced decentralized folk worship. I don't think these things are necessarily indicative of a divine revelation, unless you want to argue that folks like Akhenaton also became monotheistic as a result of divine revelation. :-)

I don't think the entire Exodus story is a fable; I think it's hyperbole. I think a core group of Semites did live in slavery in Egypt and then return to Canaan. But I don't see evidence of the enormous disconnect between Canaanite and Israelite worship I would expect if an entire new religion was revealed from on high. I see what I would expect if a new religion evolved out of an old one.

OK

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

You have me there, because I hardly know enough about Canaanite worship to argue about it. I would argue, that the invading Israelites were influenced and caught up in various forms of Canaanite worship, as an ongoing process during the invasion, precisely because they failed to irridicate it. Just like the book of Judges tells us.

But going back to the religious POV, if all what you say is true, what then of Jesus? He obviously accepted the divinity of the Torah, especially so, if you take the more modern attitude, that he himself was a Pharisee, rather than fighting against them (See "Pharisees" and Christianity [Wikipedia])... You would hardly expect acceptance of the type of theological "hanky-panky" you possibly attribute to the leaders of Hilkiah's era, from a person with Jesus's other views.

Re: OK

[qatar.livejournal.com]

To some extent, either account of Canaanite-style worship among the Israelites works. In my version, they were given the Law and broke it anyway; in my version, the Law was a backformation that they had never fully followed. Either way, it's a different story from 2,000,000 people making a complete break with historical religion, which is what I thought was your evidence for divine revelation.

I think Jesus probably accepted Moses' authorship of the Torah. Haven't we already established that I'm enough of a heretic that I think Jesus could have gotten his history wrong? :-)

In other news, w00t, this is post #100!!!!

Re: OK

[qatar.livejournal.com]

Oops. Obviously the first "my version" is, in fact, "your version." Unless I'm having a Fight Club moment.

Give me a break! ;-)

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

it's a different story from 2,000,000 people making a complete break with historical religion

I never said, nor meant to imply that the revelation at Sinai, was a "complete break" from anything. Only that claims regarding an event that was said to have been experienced by 2,000,000 people (and that their immediate or near ancestors accepted as Truth), is something much harder to "fake" than some other founding event for other Revelations, such as a shepperd living in a cave for 15 years, or that of a teacher to 12. The fact that the [early] Jews, weren't quite as thoroughly observant of this Revelation, as one would wish, doesn't detract from the validity "strength" of the event, only goes to show how ornery we are, or taking it straight from G-d - "I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people." (Exodus 32:9).

When I spoke of Jesus accepting the divinity of the Torah, I wasn't referring to good ol' heretic you (Burn, Heretic! Burn!), but to "mainstream" cross-denominational Christianity (as if any uch thing existed). In order to make any claims regarding Jesus as the Messiah, whether by Jesus himself, or later, one must first posit that "being the Messiah", and that which "one is Messiah of" must both be Divine in origins. Otherwise Jesus would just be the latest "layer" of flapdoodle on top of this compost pile.

Re: Give me a break! ;-)

[qatar.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you mean by divinity here. Do you mean that if Jesus thought the Torah was divine, he must have been right? Because I don't think even mainstream Christianity would argue that Jesus was necessarily omniscient during his earthly life.

Or do you mean that if the Tanakh isn't divine, then there is no prophesy of a messiah, and thus his messiahship is meaningless?

The later

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

If the Torah, and our Bible is not divine, then Jesus himself doesn't have a leg to stand on, as a Messiah.

Re: The later

[qatar.livejournal.com]

I think we're increasingly talking past each other here. :-) I think the Torah and Hebrew Bible in general is a response to divinity, and that Jesus' life was lived out in response to that same sense of divinity. I think that Jesus understood God and his own life and purpose in the context of the Hebrew Bible. I don't think I have to see the Torah as being literally written by God in order to make sense of that.

It occurs to me that I've probably given you the impression that I find the Torah worthless, just because I like to argue so much. ;-)

My point was

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

regarding Jesus and the divinity of the Torah, goes back to the initial comment you made regarding the potential for giving Judaism a major "make-over" in the times of Hilkia, as we initially discussed at the start of this sub-thread. My claim was that any Christian who made this claim would be shooting themselves in the foot! By undermining the branch that Jesus stands on.

I hardly feel you think the Torah is worthless. I have find you to be highly reverent throughout. You are also well read, thoughtful and highly argumentative. I like that!

Re: My point was

[qatar.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm not entirely sure what branch you see Jesus as standing on that would be undermined (sawn off, maybe?) by the claim that, say, Deuteronomy was written in the reign of Josiah. Jesus may have seen the Law as having been written by Moses, but don't think he saw it as having been written by G-d -- otherwise why would he have spent so much time saying, "Moses told you x, but I say y"? So I don't see questioning the divinity of the Torah as undermining Jesus. (As an aside, I am using what I understand to be your definition of "divinity, " which sounds to me like what Christians call verbal plenary inspiration. I don't necessarily believe that the Torah has to have been written by God in order to be divine.)

I think I, personally, see Jesus more as standing on the Prophets than on the Law. Now that I think about it, in fact, I think my tendency is to see the Prophets as more divine than the Law, whereas your perspective is obviously the other way around.

The Show MUST go on

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

Well rather than have this thread drift off into a multitude of unrelated sub-threads, it would likely be best to start new ones, that way the rest of qatar's readers can follow them too. But it's up to you folks.

The answer to your question, which should nip this sub-thread off pretty quickly is inherent in the different nouns used in to two sentences of mine that you quoted. The first refers to "souls" while the second refers to "people". As a general rule, each person has one soul. ;-) But not all souls "have" one people. ;-) What we call "people" or a "person" in the singular, is in fact the living combination of a body and a soul. If you are dead, or as in this case yet-unborn, your soul will still exist, but you will be rather immaterial, and rather lacking in the Body Department.

So the two million, refer to the physical head-count, of the living flesh-and-blood people who were present, as derived from the Torah sources (the Torah actually refers to some 600,000 men (Exodus 12:37). Typically in such "counts" "men" refers to those aged 20 and up). The present 14 million is also a body-count. The number of souls present at Sinai, on the other hand, is not at all a body count, but rather refers to some sort of disembodied presence, and would more likely be in the order of a minimum of 30-50 million, for all Jews that have lived until the present. So I see no conflict at all.

It's cool to know that Islam and Christianity together, at 54 percent, are over half of the world. I had always thought that most of the world were idolaters of some kind. Although, I must say their number look strange considering that in India there are over 800,000 million Hindus alone, and I wonder what type of numbers they use for China which is "officially" Atheist (Yes, I saw their comments on China).